is a psychology phd worth it reddit

Should You Pursue a Psychology Doctorate?

Questions to help you decide, and how to make the most of a psy.d. or ph.d..

Posted January 23, 2021 | Reviewed by Ekua Hagan

Especially in a weak job market, it’s tempting to go back to school, including all the way to a doctorate. That may be especially so in clinical psychology specialties, in which an oversupply of job candidates allows employers to ratchet-up hiring requirements. If only because a doctorate is a quite unassailable hiring criterion, it’s often used.

If your aim is private practice, a doctorate may be less helpful in getting clients. While some prospective clients will be swayed by those letters next to your name, being referred by friends, your competence displayed in an initial phone call and sessions, and, alas, marketing may be more central.

Increased employability is, of course, but one factor to consider before committing the time and money to a doctorate.

Should you do it?

Yes, most people should consider the extent to which your employability would improve. If you’re currently employed, would a doctorate get you a significant promotion and raise? How much do you care about those? If you’re unemployed, a doctorate will improve your employability but also important will be whether you’ve made the most of the program. (See this article's final section.)

It’s not all about utility. Do you think you’d enjoy the doctoral education experience, even if the first year or so will be partly or completely virtual? It’s a mistake to decide based on your past college experience, especially if it’s been a while since you’ve been in school.

On the upside, you’re likely more mature and have had more life experience onto which to hang academic learning. On the downside, many older students, even if just in their 30s, find it harder to learn and retain, in part just because they may have family, job, and other activities that take time away from studying.

So, rather than look backward, project forward into the years you’d be in graduate school. What’s your guess as to how much benefit and pleasure you’d derive from the process?

Consider the opportunity cost. If you didn’t spend the time and money on graduate school, what would be a wise use of those years and funds: self-study, apprenticing, doing your current job well, and networking to increase the chances of a more interesting career ?

Choosing where to apply

First, decide whether to go for a Ph.D. or a Psy.D. The Ph.D. of course is better known if only because it’s been around longer. That also contributes to the Ph.D. being seen by the public as more prestigious. In fact, the key differentiator between Ph.D. and Psy.D. is that the Ph.D. focuses on preparing researchers while the Psy.D. prepares practitioners. Of course, many people with Ph.D.s also practice but if your goal is to be a practitioner, all factors equal, consider trading the sizzle of the Ph.D. for the steak of the Psy.D.

Of course, all Ph.D. programs nor Psy.D. programs are alike. For example, each has a primary orientation, perhaps psychodynamic, behavioral, or physiological. Individual professors may be expert in anything from autism to zoophilia.

It’s usually wise to pick a tentative specialty before or during the process of investigating where to apply. Of course, that will ensure that you apply to schools with strength in your prospective specialization. But it will also enhance your admissibility. Most programs get many more applicants than they admit, and a key selection criterion is the extent of fit between the program's strengths and the student's desires. So if you can articulate your being a particularly good fit, your admissibility will improve.

Tip: In reviewing prospective programs, if you find a professor with a specialty of interest, read one of his or her not-technical articles, and if you continue to be intrigued by the specialty, the professor, and the overall program, write an email to the professor explaining that. Ask if you might chat during office hours to discuss the program.

At such a discussion, if it goes well, you might even say that if admitted, you'd welcome becoming that professor’s advisee or even research assistant. Many professors crave acolytes, if only because they provide free or cheap labor on their research projects. That could result in the professor recommending you be admitted.

Which school?

Among programs that admitted you, how well-suited is it to you, ideologically and geographically. Most graduates end up getting a job in that locale, so you may be there longer than just your school years. How good is the financial aid offer? What do external reviews say about the program? GraduatePrograms.com seems to have the most student ratings.

And then there's the prestige factor. Alas, we live in a designer-label society. So "Harvard" will open more career doors than No-Name State even if the latter's program is excellent and better-suited.

Making the most of the program

Your advisor is key. Perhaps as important as the professor's specialization is his or her desire and ability to mentor you and to open career doors for you. If you're not happy with your advisor, change — usually the earlier the better so there's less resentment and more time to bond with your new advisor. Try to establish a relationship with one or more other faculty members: During office hours and via email, ask thoughtful academic and career questions.

Adapt the assigned papers and projects to suit your career goal and personal interests. Usually, the professor will grant your request if it is well reasoned. And select topics for your oral and written exams and dissertation with the same care.

Fieldwork is key if you're aiming toward a clinical rather than research career. If you don't like the placement or supervisor, request a new one. Sometimes, you can even search out and propose a great fit placement that you've unearthed.

The takeaway

In a crowded field like psychology, success typically requires differentiation from the crowd. A doctorate in which you've made career-building choices can be that differentiator.

I read this aloud on YouTube.

The other articles in this series on making major life decisions can be found here.

Marty Nemko, Ph.D ., is a career and personal coach based in Oakland, California, and the author of 10 books.

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Career Planning

• Jul 22, 2022
• 11 min read

Is a PhD Worth It? The Pros and Cons of Getting a Doctorate

To get a PhD or not to get a PhD? That is the question.

Valerie David

Lifestyle and Career Expert

Reviewed by Hayley Ramsey

Entering the job market for the first time can be a stressful experience, especially if you don't feel completely prepared. When deciding how to take those first steps toward your ultimate career , and how to give yourself a chance at the best jobs, you may find yourself asking: “Should I do a PhD?”.

While academics looking forward to a life of learning may consider this a no-brainer, there are important factors for everyone to consider. Finances, job prospects and quality of life issues can greatly affect the success of furthering your education.

To help you decide if the time and effort of a PhD is worth it, here are the major benefits and disadvantages of getting that doctorate.

After four or more years of intellectual pursuits, adding a PhD may seem like overkill. Before you make your choice, let's look at all the benefits that are exclusive to earning the most advanced degree.

1. You can contribute new knowledge to the world

Embarking on a PhD programme means delving into your preferred subject in a much deeper way than you have in any of your previous studies. The beauty of this advanced degree is that it allows you to sail in uncharted waters. Your goal is to find new information, draw new conclusions and, hopefully, make a significant contribution to your field.

Your intensive research, travel, collaboration and study will lead you on an unpredictable path to telling a story that no one has heard before. For some students, this pursuit of knowledge and discovery is enough to make all the hard work of earning a PhD worth it.

2. You'll have access to more prestigious jobs

One of the key benefits of a PhD is that it opens doors to careers at the highest levels. This can include leadership positions in science and engineering, government roles in economics and political science, and prestigious teaching posts for English and arts majors. Even if an advanced degree isn't required for the job you want, that PhD can give you an extra air of authority in your field and an edge over other candidates.

Another obvious upside to continuing your postgraduate studies is that landing these powerful positions can lead to large financial rewards. Some areas of study, like medicine and the law, tend to be more lucrative, but it can also depend on the type of job. For example, a university professor or researcher post can pay well for a wide variety of disciplines. Check out sites like the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the National Careers Service to investigate potential salaries.

3. Employers look for candidates with your superior writing skills

A study arranged by the National Commission on Writing discovered that blue-chip businesses (long-standing companies with stable stock growth) are spending more than $3 billion a year on remedial writing course for current employees. This includes staff with undergraduate degrees.

So, when a hiring manager peruses your résumé and sees that you've earned a PhD, they'll know immediately that you've spent years honing your skills at compiling research, organizing mountains of data and writing about your results in a cohesive and persuasive way. This will clearly set you apart from your competition, while landing your dream job will prove that pursuing that advanced degree was worth it.

4. You'll improve on all your soft skills

While pursuing your undergraduate degree, you likely noticed that you were learning more than just the subject matter taught in each class. Completing your studies also required time management skills , focus and problem solving .

Getting a doctorate degree requires even more of the soft skills that employers look for in applicants . Your intensive study and finished thesis should lead to improvements in your problem solving, critical thinking , patience and adaptability . These desirable skills won't just help you land a job but also excel in whatever career you choose to pursue .

5. You'll collect an extensive network of professional colleagues

When weighing the pros and cons of earning a PhD, consider all the professional contacts you'll make during the course of your studies. Working closely with professors, department heads, experts in your field, as well as fellow researchers, helps you develop an important resource. This network of colleagues can provide continual assistance with references, job leads, career advice and collaboration.

6. You can wait for a more favorable job market

Job prospects may not look that promising when you've completed your undergraduate degree, or even after you've been in the workforce for a few years. While there's no guarantee things will improve after a delay, some students may appreciate the benefit of a steady graduate assistant salary while they work on enhancing their résumé with a doctorate.

If you couldn't get a good internship during or after your undergrad studies, the PhD work also gives you the time to build that professional network . These contacts could prove to be the key to breaking into a specialized or highly competitive field.

You may still be thinking about all that time and commitment and wondering, “Is a PhD worth it?”. While there are always positive results from improving your education, there are some downsides to getting your doctorate.

1. It's expensive

This is a substantial factor for many students when weighing the merits of pursuing a PhD versus entering the job market right away. If you already have student loans , continuing your education will just increase your burden and add substantial pressure when you eventually begin your job search.

If cost is a concern, investigate graduate assistant jobs that help with expenses. Some programmes offer tuition assistance in return for teaching or research work. For those who already work full time and are hoping a PhD will help them advance in their career, consider keeping that job and pursuing your studies on a part-time basis.

2. Getting a PhD can be a lonely experience

Despite your interactions with professors and other students, pursuing a doctoral degree is ultimately a solitary pursuit. Your thesis topic is unique to you, and you'll spend a lot of time alone doing research and writing. Your social life can suffer, especially if you're also working in addition to your studies.

Career experts often talk about the necessity of work-life balance for physical and mental health, and this is just as important for PhD students as anyone else. It may take you a little longer to complete your degree, but it's worth taking the time to visit family and hang out with your friends. These positive interactions can help you stay motivated through the most tedious parts of your work.

3. You'll experience extreme stress and frustration

Pursuing a PhD may seem like a noble and interesting endeavor, and extended life as a student can appear more attractive than wading into the job market. You must be aware, however, that getting a doctorate can be a very stressful and frustrating experience.

A topic that seemed intriguing at first may not live up to years of scrutiny, causing boredom at best or requiring a complete thesis change at worst. Not all programmes are well-run, either, and you may have a supervisor who is too critical, offers poor advice or is just unavailable and unhelpful.

The difficulties of a PhD programme lead to rather substantial dropout rates. In the US alone, only 57% of PhD students obtained their degree within a decade of enrolling. If you want to be in the successful half of those stats, take extra time to review your choice of supervisor and topic focus. Ask every professor you have for advice on making the right decisions and talk with current graduate students to see what their experience has been.

4. There may be limited job openings

While getting a PhD can qualify you for better and higher-paying jobs , it can also put you in a position where you're competing for an extremely limited number of job openings. This is especially true of university jobs, where the number of advanced degree graduates far outpaces the need for full-time instructors, researchers and administrators.

Earning your PhD with a very obscure thesis in a niche speciality can also limit your options. When there are only a handful of jobs that suit your expertise, and they're already occupied, it can make you feel that your doctorate was a waste of time. Consider the job market before you make decisions about getting another degree. If you're determined to study in a niche area, think ahead of time about related fields or industries where your knowledge and skills will also prove useful to employers.

5. There may be little to no financial reward

While most studies concur that having a PhD increases your income potential substantially over the lifetime of your career, it's not a guarantee of job security or a financial windfall. A study by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) found that 5 years after earning their doctorates , 45% of grads in Germany were still on temporary contracts and 13% ended up in lowly occupations.

Other European countries, including Slovakia, Belgium and Spain, had similar results. In the US, in fields like engineering, the difference in pay scales between employees with a master's degree and a PhD was a mere 7%. When that small bump in salary is weighed against the amount of debt taken on in order to get your degree, you may decide it's not worth it.

6. You could lose out on valuable job experience

New forms of technology continue to change how organizations operate, and those changes can happen fast. If you've already spent several years in school, toiling away in solitary study of obscure subjects can cause you to fall further behind in learning the skills you'll actually need for a future career.

Before you invest in getting a PhD, research your chosen field and learn which type of degree will give you the most value. Many scientific, financial and computing careers rely more on skills acquired on the job, rather than in coursework that can quickly become outdated.

Questions to ask yourself

You’ve listed out the pros and cons, but that still may not be enough to help make your decision. When it comes to a life-altering change like getting a doctorate, it’s okay to take enough time to ask yourself specific questions to ensure you’re making the right move. Consider asking yourself the following:

• Why do I want to get a PhD?
• Do I have the pre-requisites to move forward to a PhD?
• What are my strengths and limitations?
• Am I financially prepared?
• Am I mentally prepared?
• How will this affect my relationship with my family or friends?
• Where will I study?
• What am I trying to achieve?
• What jobs will be available to me after I get my PhD?
• Are there other options or avenues to consider?

Unfortunately, you may not have the answer to every one of these questions, because let’s face it, you don’t know what you don’t know. You might not know how it will affect your relationship with family or friends, but why not ask them? Reach out to those closest to you and see how you pursuing this degree could trickle down to them and allow that to play into your decision. Evaluate the answers to these questions and use it to help you make an educated decision on your future moving forward.

The best PhD degrees

If you’ve weighed out the pros and cons, asked all the important questions, and now you’re set on getting your PhD, congratulations! To help you along the way, let’s look at a list of the most valuable PhD programs to start you on your way to this degree.

• Criminal Justice
• Engineering
• Cybersecurity
• Business Administration

These fields are rapidly growing and are among the highest-paying doctorate degrees in 2022 , so they might be worth considering as you start your journey.

Key takeaways

Pursuing your PhD requires an incredible amount of commitment, and it's important to take the necessary time to make the decision. As you’re evaluating a doctorate degree, remember the following:

• Evaluate the pros and cons list right from the beginning to ensure you’re weighing out both sides of the coin.
• Ask yourself the necessary questions. A doctorate degree commitment can affect more than just you, so be sure you’re factoring that into your decision.
• Review specifically which PhD would be best for you and your field progression.
• Research your chosen field carefully and evaluate the job market before you finalize your degree choice.
• Once you’ve selected your degree, stay focused and stay driven. It’s going to be a hard few years, but it will be worth the work!

Who knows, this may prompt you to move on to postgraduate study — never stop achieving!

Have you decided to pursue your PhD, or are you still considering your options? Join us in the comments below and let us know what’s stopping or encouraging you from getting a PhD.

Originally published on July 24, 2019. Updated by Shalie Reich.

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Psy.D. Vs. Ph.D.: Which Is The Right Fit For You?

Updated: Jan 2, 2024, 3:22pm

Committing to a Ph.D. or a Psy.D. program can have a significant impact on your career path. Both will prepare you for a career in psychology , but there are significant differences between the two programs you should know about. In general, a Ph.D. in psychology focuses more on research and a Psy.D. focuses on practical application.

While both programs can lead to becoming a licensed psychologist , taking a closer look at what each degree track will provide will help you determine whether a Ph.D. or Psy.D. is best for you.

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What Is a Ph.D. in Psychology?

A Ph.D. in psychology, or a Doctor of Philosophy in psychology, is a doctoral degree that primarily focuses on training students in scientific research. Compared to a Psy.D, the Ph.D. is more common and can be found at many public and private universities.

Students in a Ph.D. in psychology program can expect to obtain and build on the knowledge and skills within general psychology or in a concentration. The American Psychological Association (APA) has an extensive list of subfields that range from clinical psychology to climate and environmental psychology.

Benefits of a Ph.D. in Psychology

A significant benefit of a Ph.D. in psychology is that it offers more financial aid options. Many programs offer scholarships, teaching assistantships or even full or partial tuition remission to cover expenses. Some programs also have research grants and fellowships that are sponsored by government agencies and private companies that you can apply for and become part of a research team.

Another benefit is that some programs offer training in both applied practice and in research, rather than focusing heavily on application as a Psy.D. program would. Having dual training may provide you more opportunities on the job market.

What Is a Psy.D.?

A Psy.D., or a Doctor of Psychology, is also a doctoral degree that focuses on application. A Psy.D. program prepares students to provide services for patients and clients, rather than a focus on research.

Unlike a Ph.D., Psy.D. programs are often found in professional schools of psychology that may be university-based, free-standing or in medical or health and science institutions.

Benefits of a Psy.D.

While a Psy.D. may not have the same financial benefits of a Ph.D. program, a Psy.D. will give you more experience with patients earlier in your program. Candidates will often begin coursework and clinical training in the first year of their program.

A Psy.D. program, such as one for aspiring clinical psychologists , features an intensive focus on client-focused skills. Courses can include supervision and consultation, treatment and assessment and other classes that will cover disorders.

In some Psy.D. programs, you may be expected to complete a doctoral-level research project instead of a dissertation.

What to Consider When Choosing a Program

The first consideration you should make when choosing a program is the kind of work you want to pursue post-graduation. Do you want to do research or teach? Do you want to provide services to clients and patients?

Here are some considerations you should make when making the big decision.

Look at Time Spent in School

Both Ph.D. and Psy.D. programs require a heavy investment of your time in school. Programs often require applicants to have an undergraduate and master’s degree. However, some programs have combined master’s and doctorate degrees, reducing years of education and allowing students to enter the workforce sooner.

Students can expect to spend five years in school before obtaining a degree, with four years of coursework and one year of internship. Many candidates, however, take between five to seven years to graduate.

Find Your Focus

Your academic focus and concentration choice may sway your decision in applying for one doctoral degree over the other.

Concentrations in a Psy.D program are typically in clinical, counseling, school or industrial-organizational psychology . In contrast, the options of subfields within a Ph.D. program are more broad and focus heavily on research and experimentation to build knowledge within a discipline.

Consider Your Career Path

Considering your career path or interests will help you decide whether a Ph.D. or Psy.D. is right for you. While the most familiar psychology careers are commonly found in education and healthcare, psychologists are needed in other industries, such as business and technology. These in-demand specialties contribute to high psychologist salaries .

Accreditation

Accreditation of your Ph.D. or Psy.D. program ensures that your program is recognized by the governing bodies for licensure. While completing an accredited program will not guarantee you employment or licensure, it will equip you with necessary skills and knowledge.

The APA has a tool to help students find accredited doctoral programs, as well as internships and postdoctoral residencies across the country.

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)

What can you do with psy.d..

A Psy.D. focuses on working directly with patients to provide psychological services. For example, a clinical Psy.D. will prepare students to provide mental and behavioral healthcare to individuals and families across all demographics and over individuals’ lifespans.

Which psychology field is most in-demand?

The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics projects strong job growth for psychologists from 2022 to 2032, with a 6% increase overall. Clinical and counseling psychologists will see the highest demand, with an expected growth rate of 11%, followed by industrial-organizational psychologists at 6%.

How long does it take to earn a Ph.D. in psychology?

Many Ph.D. programs project a five year completion time. However, many students can take upwards of seven years.

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Brandon Galarita is a freelance writer and K-12 educator in Honolulu, Hawaii. He is passionate about technology in education, college and career readiness and school improvement through data-driven practices.

Amy Bucher, Ph.D.

Applied Behavioral Science for Health and Well-Being

Should I Get a PhD in Psychology?

Before I get started, keep in mind that PhD programs differ quite a bit between disciplines. If you’re thinking of getting a degree in engineering or English, your program might look a lot different from mine, so keep your grain of salt handy.

You might want to get a PhD in psychology if . . .

You want a job or career that requires a PhD. This one seems like a no-brainer, but not everyone thinks it through. In general, working as an academic in an R1 institution  (that is, a tenure-track professor role that includes both teaching and research) will require a PhD. It’s possible to get a college teaching job at a community college or liberal arts school with a master’s degree, although my guess is that this is getting increasingly competitive as PhD programs graduate new doctors faster than the academic job market can bear . Likewise, it’s possible to work in academic research (particularly in a lab manager or coordinator role) without a PhD, but these roles are not plentiful in the social sciences.

If you are interested in counseling psychology, it may not be necessary to get a PhD. PhDs in clinical psychology who receive their license (through additional training and internships) are qualified to counsel patients, but so are social workers (LMSWs), psychiatrists (MDs), and many other types of professionals. I’d recommend the PhD for someone who wants to counsel patients but is also interested in conducting and consuming research on mental health and treatment.

You can also use a PhD in psychology in a number of non-academic fields. I work in a blended role where I conduct and apply research on motivation and behavior change to health technology. Other psychologists I know work in market research and consumer insights, human resources data analytics, product development, and strategy consulting. A PhD in psychology typically comes with strong research design and analysis skills that can be creatively applied in a number of fields, although you may need to do some work to help others see that connection.

You are comfortable with intellectual uncertainty.  The more you know, the more you become aware of all you don’t know. A doctoral education is a fast way to figure out all of the many, many gaps in your knowledge. Being successful in graduate school requires getting comfortable with the idea that you will never know everything, that there is rarely an easy black-or-white answer to questions, and that your hardest work may not be in acquiring knowledge, but in sorting through it and organizing it. If you’re the type of person who loves puzzling through huge volumes of sometimes contradictory information, you will enjoy grad school more than someone who prefers just enough information to make a basically correct conclusion.

You love learning and sharing what you’ve learned.   This is a corollary to being comfortable with shades of gray. A colleague of mine once told me he can recognize people who have PhDs by their outlook when presented with a problem. He said, they’re the ones who will dive into researching and reading and figuring out the problem and want to discuss it and think about it.

You have a big but resilient ego.  On the one hand, it’s hard to make it through grad school if you don’t believe in your own intellectual abilities. It’s especially important to have a healthy ego because grad school also consists of being constantly beaten down. That sounds fun, doesn’t it? But in all seriousness, the volume of work required, the depth of feedback given, and the level of competition encountered in grad school all wear down on you over time. Add to that the many rejections and set-backs that everyone encounters during grad school, including paper and conference rejections, grades or exam scores below goal, and funding crises, and it takes a resilient soul to make it through. And it takes a big ego to keep submitting the next paper, exam, or grant application after the last rejection.

This is not to imply that grad school will not also make you more resilient. It will. You will learn a lot of strategies for coping with tough days and nights, and you’ll find enduring friendship in the trenches.

Some cautions . . .

If you want to be rich, a PhD is not a quick win.  You can definitely make a very nice living with a psychology PhD, in several different types of jobs. But grad school is expensive–even if you have a stipend to cover your costs, you will not be earning enough money to save, and you may additionally be acquiring loans. Because grad school living is so lean, I am glad I went right after my undergraduate, while I was still used to having no money (although I have friends who worked between undergrad and grad school and were glad to have some savings).

Many PhD programs include a master’s degree as part of their curriculum. I’ve met people who pursued a master’s degree as a way to test the waters for a PhD program. In general, I recommend against this. Many, if not all, PhD programs in psychology include a master’s degree as the conclusion of the first few years of coursework, and I’ve never heard of a program that lets someone skip those first few years based on a prior master’s. The people I know who tested the PhD waters by getting a master’s are now people with two master’s.

PhD programs take a while.  My grad school program, like many psychology PhD programs, was approximately five years long and included two years of coursework toward the master’s along with ongoing research requirements and at least four semesters of undergraduate teaching. Students pursuing a clinical license also have to do an internship on top of these other requirements.

People will be weird to you if you get a PhD in psychology.  First, if you get any PhD, some people will want to comment on your intelligence level (at least they assume it’s high!), which I find awkward. Second, if your PhD is in psychology, prepare for comments like:

• “Do you know what I’m thinking right now?” (Answer: No, that’s psychic, not psychologist.)
• “Are you psychoanalyzing me right now?” (Answer: No, I’m not that type of psychologist, but even if I were, I wouldn’t be doing my job for fun right now.)
• “So you must know everything that’s wrong with me.” (Response: Well, I know you don’t really know what a psychologist does.)

Joking aside, I think the PhD can intimidate people at times, so be prepared for those reactions and ready to either use them to your advantage or alleviate them with humor and humility.

It’s up to you.

Like I said, I can’t tell anyone whether a PhD in psychology is right for them. The decision has to be one you own. Grad school is hard and long, but also filled with many adventures and pockets of joy. I am so glad that I went and earned my PhD. I wouldn’t have my career and the opportunities it provides if I hadn’t, and I would never have met many of the people who are the most important in my life. If you want to take on this onerous journey, you have to really want it; but if you do, I promise you’ll have some good times on the way.

Related posts:

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• Career Options Outside Academia for Psychology PhDs
• Walking Away from Academia with a PhD in Psychology

4 thoughts on “ Should I Get a PhD in Psychology? ”

I’m in my last year of my undergrad in psych. In 27 and have 2 kids. I want to pursue a degree where I can do what I enjoy, and make money. I’m worried about another 7 years in school for a PhD and was told there isn’t much for me with a masters in clinical psychology. I had looked into LCSW, but was not sure if I would be content selling short my dream/goal. Can I counsel, and still do research with a masters? Or am I better with an LCSW?

Admittedly, clinical practice is not my area of expertise. However, I do know people who have counseled with an MA and I also know several people with LCSWs. Both seem like good options if you’re interested in the clinical piece.

I’m not sure about the research part–I’d imagine that depends on where you end up working as a counselor. In a university or health system setting, it seems to me that should be possible. The PhD does make research more feasible as it sets you up to run a lab (assuming you go into academia or a research-focused company).

I was very influenced by the idea that even if something takes a long time, that time will still pass and at the end of it you could have done the thing or not. There have been a few times it’s helped me make choices that seem like they take a lot of time and commitment.

I’m interested in what you decide! I am sure you will find a way to do what makes you happy while making money.

Hi Amy! Thank you so much for your posts. I’ve been STRUGGLING with the decision of whether or not to apply to graduate school for a PhD in Social Psychology. To be frank, I don’t feel qualified to apply and I’m unsure if my reasons for wanting to go to graduate school are good ones. I’m no longer an undergrad student so opportunities to work in a lab has been impossible without at least a Master’s.

A little bit about me: I graduated from undergrad in 2015. I did work as a research assistant for a couple of months, but I mainly invested my time working full-time to pay for school. I liked working in a lab but it was in Human Development & Nutrition, so I often found myself watching the dynamics and social interactions between the family members rather than watching what I was tasked to focus on (whoops). I graduated with decent grades (3.75) with two majors (Communication & Psychology) and a minor (Latin – I love languages). I have a lot of supervising and training work experience from my job, and I would like to continue working in a training/educational capacity (so not really interested in being in academia).

The reason I want to study Social Psychology at the Doctoral level is because I have SO many questions on topics like resilience & life stories. As a trainer & supervisor, I would witness people crumble and thrive in the face of obstacles and (as a person who has the tendency to crumble) I would wonder: “What do resilient people do differently? How can the way we view our life stories change how resilient we are in the face of life challenges? What about in the context of training for a new position? How can programs be created to take into account differing personalities and stories?” Another reason is because I’ve read so many personal development books but I couldn’t help but think: “This is nice but show me the research behind it. I want to see it tested and understand why it works.” Not really sure if those are good enough reasons to apply.

Overall, I want to be able to take research on resilience and make it more applicable and accessible. I want to create workshops & train people on resilience & life stories (possibly do something similar to life coaching), but I’m not sure if that’s a good enough reason to apply or if I should probably go about it through another route.

I apologize for the long comment, but you’re website has been the only helpful website I have found on this topic!

Thank you for the kind comments!

As for applying–it can’t hurt to look at a few programs and see if you can’t find one that feels like a good fit. Having served on the admissions committee while in grad school (we were all required to give a year in service), I can tell you that your passion and curiosity will matter. Maybe you can find a few names of professors or grad students at schools that interest you working on resilience and grit and reach out to them for an informational interview (you may have better luck with grad students).

The other thing you could try to do is find a non-academic research job that lets you explore your questions. Agencies are a good place to look. Many big companies are also bringing behavior change teams in-house.

I’d love to know what you end up doing!

Comments are closed.

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10 Reasons to Major in Psychology

A good career begins with a good education

Why should you major in psychology? Is psychology a good career? If you've ever contemplated pursuing a psychology degree, these are questions you've probably asked yourself.

Psychology is one of the most popular college majors among undergraduate students around the world Psychology ranks as the fourth most popular major, and over 100,000 U.S. students earn a bachelor's degree in this field each year.

Why is psychology so popular? A psychology degree offers students the opportunity for personal growth and opens up a huge range of career opportunities.

At a Glance

Psychology can be an excellent choice for a college major and career for many reasons. Getting a psychology degree can open the doors to many different careers and lead you to a job that is in high demand. It can also be a great way to learn more about yourself and make a real difference in people's lives. If you are wondering if psychology is the right choice for you , consider some of the following reasons why you should major in psychology.

Prepare for a Wide Variety of Careers

Tom M Johnson / Blend Images / Getty Images

Psychology is certainly not a one-size-fits-all career choice. In fact, one of the greatest strengths of a psychology degree is the enormous variety of career paths that are available to graduates.

Students can tailor their education and degree to focus on specialty areas that appeal to their interests.

Some of these potential professions include:

• Clinical psychology
• Sports psychology
• Forensic psychology
• Health psychology
• Industrial-organizational psychology
• Human factors psychology

Learn More About Yourself and Others

David Schaffer / Caiaimage / Getty Images

Have you ever wondered why people behave in certain ways? Or maybe you’ve always wanted to learn more about your own mind, emotions, and actions? Earning a degree in psychology is an excellent way to gain a greater understanding of people.

These Skills Are Highly Transferable

In addition to satisfying your own interest in human nature, having a solid understanding of what makes people do certain things can be a very marketable skill in a wide variety of job settings, including social services , advertising, marketing, education, health care, and politics.

Find a Job That's in Demand

Hill Street Studios / Blend Images / Getty Images

The demand for psychological services in schools, hospitals, substance abuse treatment centers, and social services agencies is expected to fuel a positive job outlook for trained professionals. Three job areas expected to be in high demand are clinical psychology, school psychology , and industrial-organizational psychology.

According to the U.S. Department of Labor’s Bureau of Labor Statistics, the employment of psychologists is expected to grow at a rate of about 6% between 2022 and 2032. This is in line with the average growth for all jobs.

Obtaining a graduate degree and getting postdoctoral work experience may give you an extra competitive edge if you want to work in a job directly related to psychology.

Enjoy Fun, Rewarding, Challenging Work

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If you love solving practical or theoretical problems, then earning a psychology degree might be a great choice for you. Some psychologists focus on developing solutions for real-world problems or helping people resolve complex emotional issues. Others delve deeper into our understanding of the human mind and behavior by conducting research and adding to the body of scientific knowledge.

Is Psychology a Good Career?

Research shows that most psychologists enjoy their work. Around 93% of psychologists in the field report feeling "somewhat" or "very satisfied" with their careers.

Make a Difference in People’s Lives

Tom Merton / Caiaimage / Getty Images

If you’ve ever dreamed of making a real difference in other people's lives, earning a psychology degree can be an effective way to achieve that goal. Psychologists, counselors, therapists, and community services workers devote their time and energy to helping people overcome adversity, increase their well-being, and realize their full potential.

While this type of work can be emotionally demanding and stressful at times, it can also be very fulfilling.

Record, Analyze, and Interpret Data

Hero Images / Getty Images

Psychology students spend a great deal of time learning about research methods and statistics . Even if you don’t particularly love the research process, learning more about how to gather, organize, analyze, and interpret data can be an important skill in a wide variety of careers.

For example, educators, administrators, scientists, marketers, and advertisers often perform such tasks in order to make decisions, evaluate progress, and complete projects.

Prepare for Graduate Study

An undergraduate degree in psychology can be an excellent starting point for graduate study. Many students choose to earn a graduate degree in psychology, while others opt to further their education in a related field such as counseling, education, or social work .

Even if you plan on pursuing a different field in graduate school, you may still find majoring in psychology helpful. Having a background in human psychology can also lead to further study in law, medicine, or the life sciences.

Pursue a Specialty

Tetra Images / Getty Images

Let’s imagine that in addition to your strong interest in psychology, you also love sports and physical fitness. While the two subjects might seem only distantly related at first, they actually make up a major specialty area known as sports psychology.

One benefit of earning a psychology degree is that you can pursue a career path aligned with your passions and interests.

A student who enjoys working with young children can specialize in developmental psychology with a focus on early childhood development , while another student who is fascinated by the aging process could earn a degree in the same subject with a focus on the elderly.

Interestingly, psychologists who specialize in working with aging people may also have particularly great job prospects. Geropsychology, a field that uses psychology knowledge to help aging adults, is expected to be a growing field in psychology.

Impress Potential Employers

PeopleImages / DigitalVision / Getty Images

Employers highly prize the skills that you acquire during your study of psychology, such as analyzing data, communicating complex information, and understanding human behavior.

While around 64% of the 1.3 million people with a bachelor's in psychology say that their degree is directly related to their current career, the remainder put their knowledge of psychology to work in other professions.

These could include:

• Advertising
• Criminal justice
• Health services
• Human resources
• Public affairs

Study a Topic You Love

The best possible reason to earn a degree in psychology is simply a love for the subject matter. If you look forward to going to your psychology courses , enjoy discussing psychology topics, spend your free time browsing psychology websites, and love learning new facts about psychology, then chances are good that earning a psychology degree is the right choice for you.

Clay RA. Trends report: Psychology is more popular than ever . Monitor on Psychology . 2017;48(10):44.

National Center for Education Statistics.  Fast facts. Most popular majors .

U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Psychologists . Occupational Outlook Handbook .

Lin L, Christidis P, Conroy J. Most psychologists are satisfied with their jobs . Monitor on Psychology . 2019;50(3):19

American Psychological Association. Geropsychology: It's your future .

Lin L, Ghaness A, Stamm K, Christidis P, Conroy J. Do psychology degree holders work in psychology jobs ? Monitor on Psychology. 2018;49(9):19

By Kendra Cherry, MSEd Kendra Cherry, MS, is a psychosocial rehabilitation specialist, psychology educator, and author of the "Everything Psychology Book."

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Is a PhD worth it? ( self.academia )

submitted 1 year ago by [deleted]

What are your thoughts and perspectives, I am considering to pursue a PhD in computational biology/neurogenetics but not sure it it worth it in long run (also for jobs after finishing PhD program)

• 14 comments

Want to add to the discussion?

Post a comment!

[–] DangerousBill 8 points 9 points 10 points 1 year ago *   (2 children)

If you stop at a bachelor's or master's, your eventual boss might have a PhD. The advanced degree isn't for everyone, but it opens up depth and variety in your career options.

My PhD took me into six different specialties at five different employers ranging over government, industry, and academia.

A friend of mine worked on a single enzyme for his entire career, ending up as president of his university. Anything is possible.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 1 point 2 points 1 year ago   (1 child)

True, thanks for the insight. Your career path is really amazing, in what field was your PhD?

[–] DangerousBill 1 point 2 points 3 points 1 year ago   (0 children)

Biochemistry, but post docs in virus genetics and enzymology.

[–] [deleted] 3 points 4 points 5 points 1 year ago   (2 children)

40-60% of graduate students don’t finish their PhDs. The only reason to do a PhD is if you are sufficiently passionate about a field that you want to devote 4-5 years to mastery of a highly specific component of it. If you don’t have that level of passion, you won’t finish. As for career prospects: it’s a crapshoot.

[–] _XtalDave_ -1 points 0 points 1 point 1 year ago   (1 child)

Woah, where are you where the drop out rate is so high? Here in the UK the combination of failure and drop out rate is ~20%

[–] [deleted] 1 point 2 points 3 points 1 year ago   (0 children)

[–] DeepSeaDarkness 5 points 6 points 7 points 1 year ago   (1 child)

Do you want to do research as a career?

[–] [deleted] 0 points 1 point 2 points 1 year ago   (0 children)

Yes, but doing research is also possible in companies for example so that’s why it seems difficult to decide

[–] FOXO1_IGMBC 1 point 2 points 3 points 1 year ago   (0 children)

If you have to ask, you already know the answer. Once you start, you will continue to ask that question every year, and it will get harder and harder to justify the answer. Many will talk about the benefits after but you need to remember that you have to finish first, and if your asking this question as a graduate student the answer for just yourself is inevitably no.

[–] CptNemo55 0 points 1 point 2 points 1 year ago   (2 children)

Well, it depends, what is the reason you want to get a PhD?

I want to get it as it allows for my research to have more societal impact, and the focus lies more on the research than just profit and money which can be the case in companies. And I enjoy going to conferences and am passionate about the topic

[–] CptNemo55 0 points 1 point 2 points 1 year ago   (0 children)

Ok, all good reasons. What do you plan to do for a job after you have PhD?

[–] sbby31 0 points 1 point 2 points 1 year ago   (0 children)

I think that, unfortunately, it is a personal decision. Your career aspects in that field are probably decent with or without a PhD. You can definitely get yourself into a role that supports research (research that greatly benefits society, if you are lucky) with a bachelors/masters degree, and many people are very happy in that kind of role.

I assume you are relatively young (20s-ish). Doing a PhD will rob you of the experience of having money pretty early in life, and that is a dealbreaker for some (no judgement, there is no right or wrong answer). The job market for PhDs is no longer a "sure thing" that guarantees you wealth/tenure later in life.

I got my PhD in a roughly comparable field- I did it mostly because I wanted the option to lead research efforts or teach afterwards. I do not think I would be happy in a bachelors level role working under PhDs who lead the research efforts, or in an industry role where I have very little autonomy, and I stand by that decision. I decided that was important to me and endured 5 years of BS getting another slip of paper. I am not far along enough in my career to know if a PhD was the right call, but so far it has worked out well for me and I am glad I did it.

[–] marcopoloman 0 points 1 point 2 points 1 year ago   (0 children)

I did my PhD a few years ago. It did get me a much higher paying teaching position.

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• Psychology [Psy.D. / Ph.D.]

Anyone regretting doing a graduate degree in clinical psych?

• Thread starter Dream1a
• Start date Jun 10, 2011

Full Member

• Jun 10, 2011

Psychology 76

Dream1a said: I've been reading these forums for a while now and i've seen many people actually state that they regret that they did a Ph.D in clinical psychology. But for the sake of their age, and time invested, there would be no point in changing their career now. Is this the truth for a lot of people? It reminds me of something I learned in social psych where people will just continue what their doing to justify the amount of effort they put in which is presumably easier (and more logical) than starting again from scratch. Sadly, based on the gloomy prospects and the insecurity of clinical psychology, I think, if i continue, I will regret it as well.. Money is not my only motivation in life, but no one can deny that it remains apart of any decision pertaining to our career. Whilst I understand that people have genuine interests in research and would do it for "next to nothing", I do not believe that this is the majority of people. Clinical psychology seems extremely difficult to get into, requiring extensive research, and good grades (all of which take a lot of effort and time). I'm far from an economist, but to me, the time and effort required to achieve a Ph.D is much > than the return. The question is, do people just continue with psych because they've dug themselves too deep and rather continue than starting again or do people enjoy it so much that they don't take into account that the return is much lower than the input? I think most people, including myself, live their lives believing that if you put in a lot of hard work, such as in university, you expect a return. I'm not saying that a lot of hard work entitles someone to have an equivalent return but rather that why would people KNOWINGLY put in so much effort realizing that the outcome is pretty bleak? Indeed, why would a rational person choose the longest and hardest path when there are shortcuts? (i.e. Masters) Click to expand...

cara susanna

I don't really regret it. I can't think of anything else I'd rather be doing and that I'd be as good at.  

I regret it. That's why I'm considering getting out of it. If you don't enjoy it, get out. Seriously. It's not going to get better or easier.  

Like i mentioned, there are people who genuinely enjoy their work and for them the compensation is not a huge factor. But, my question is more do you need a Ph.D to find a job that you enjoy?  

For me, yes, because my true passion is research. And if you don't mind my asking, krisrox, are your current feelings towards the field due to reasons aside from your advisor leaving? If so, I'd be curious to hear them.  

cara susanna said: For me, yes, because my true passion is research. And if you don't mind my asking, krisrox, are your current feelings towards the field due to reasons aside from your advisor leaving? If so, I'd be curious to hear them. Click to expand...

Senior Member

Dream1a said: I'm far from an economist, but to me, the time and effort required to achieve a Ph.D is much > than the return. Click to expand...

Dream1a said: Indeed, why would a rational person choose the longest and hardest path when there are shortcuts or more secure alternatives? (i.e. Masters, MD) Click to expand...

AcronymAllergy

Neuropsychologist.

Dream1a said: Well, let's put research and academia aside as there are obvious reasons why one would get a Ph.D. I'm more interested in students who were more interested in being a "clinical psychologist", that is, either in private or public practice. Click to expand...

No offense to Carasusana, but she is not even a fellow yet, so I would consider that when you read her advice. Clinical Psychology is not worth it. Any field where you spend 7 + years in school and then face the prospect of being unemployed or having to move to the middle of nowhere to get a job is crazy. To make $50K after killing yourself for all this time is not worth it. The prospects are dimming. Salaries are falling. More jobs are LCSW or Ph.D. Our scopes of practice are being violated. You never see jobs that say M.D./D.O/or NP and you will never be without a job with an MD. And let's face it, psychiatrists make enough doing med checks that they can do therapy on the side if they so choose. Don't fall prey to the concorde effect (the social psychological principle you mentioned).  

I'm not really giving advice, just stating my opinion. I have other interests, but they would be either in fields where I don't have the necessary skills or where it's even more competitive, and with less returns, than psychology. If that's not true for you, cool, go do something else. You can find pretty much the same discussion in other professions as well.  

Jon Snow said: Doctoral level fields, in general, often don't have the biggest financial return. I agree, an unfunded PhD/PsyD is most likely a bad choice. I haven't felt like I've worked that hard "killing" myself for years for some payout. Life is a process, the point is not where you end up but how you get there. I'm not saying a psychology degree is all roses and supermodels but, if you like the topics, it's quite interesting. It has been a good journey for me. Is it competitive? Sure. Will I ever make 50K a year? I hope not. That would be most unfortunate. People's definition of "middle of nowhere" varies substantially. Would I prefer to make multiple millions a year and live in a big city (my definition; some deranged folks call where I live a big city), whilst doing exactly the same job I currently do? Absolutely. Could I do that as an MD? Nope. Click to expand...

ClinicalPHD5

Now that i've completed my PhD, I would say that it seems less worth it with each passing year. In many fields, you work hard and you get some reward. In clinical psychology, like no other field i've seen, i would argue that it gets MORE difficult with time. After landing an internship, you breathe a sigh of relief, but then realize that its only the beginning in terms of encountering more barriers, competition, and insane state requirements. Its a never ending battle if you want to do clinical work. Many early career psychologists doing clinical work do not live comfortably and have to defer loans etc. It was never easy to make a comfortable living out of clinical work, but the clinical field has really gone downhill the last 5 years even more in terms of starting salaries and job openings. Now its equivalent to trying to become an artist except you spent 6 years in graduate school. I don't even know anyone who is earning 60K as a new graduate and i know many. I would say that people in the clinical world are earning starting salaries between like 25K-40K on average if they are lucky to land something. This is equivalent to what Research Assistants are earning out of college. I also observed that many of my clients who either just graduated from college or never even went to college (but have work experience) are earning more money than the average clinical psychologist. I would say that if you are just interested in clinical work, don't get a PhD/PsyD in clinical psychology. I would also encourage people to look into other fields before deciding on clinical psychology since there are many options that allow one to practice in a similar manner since psychotherapy is not regulated (such as NP, psychiatrist, MSW).  

MarshmallowsNOM

This thread and everyone's comments are actually very interesting to me and cover a lot of the topics and questions I have been asking myself lately in my pursuit of a graduate education and career in psych. Has anyone thought about or have any input on going for a clinical degree vs a non-clinical psych PhD? I was drawn to the PhD degree because I am a research lover, but then got interested in the clinical aspects through the lab where I worked after UG, so decided to go for clinical even though I really just want to do research. But since I am interested in researching clinical topics (anxiety disorders), it seemed like the way to go. However, I am really questioning if this is the right path for me since I really would prefer to stick to research. I'm not 100% opposed to clinical work, but don't have the same passion for therapy as I do for research. I am currently trying to narrow down the programs I will be applying to in the Fall after being rejected by all Clinical PhD attempts last round. Is anyone else in a similar position? Or maybe someone who was going for the clinical degree and then switched gears? Are those people more satisfied with their careers vs the amount of effort to get there (not having to do the extra internship year, hours/ exams for licenses, etc)? Also, given these programs tend to be less competitive for admissions (not saying they are easy to get in to, just not as ridiculously hard as clinical), how do you decide to go clinical or not? Especially if your focus is going to be research either way?  

I would say that i didn't know that the outlook was as bleak as it is when i applied to graduate school even know i did my research. The clinical field has become even more difficult to make a living in since the 2007 recession (which still continues) so things have changed since i made the decision to go into this field. My contingency plan is to focus on consulting and assessments. I don't know how much therapy work i'll be able to do in the long-term. I may just do therapy once/week and then do some work that is more lucrative so that i can live comfortably.  

PsychPhDone

Purpleshadow.

I am so confused. One psychologist that I saw said he made 100k/year because he worked for HMO. He also said that psychologists working in private practice are charging $100-$150 an hour. I just graduated from high school. I have a (fairly well off) friend who is still in high school and she sees a psychologist in private practice. The psychologist charges $100/hour and my friend goes to see her once a week.  

MarshmallowsNOM said: This thread and everyone's comments are actually very interesting to me and cover a lot of the topics and questions I have been asking myself lately in my pursuit of a graduate education and career in psych. Has anyone thought about or have any input on going for a clinical degree vs a non-clinical psych PhD? I was drawn to the PhD degree because I am a research lover, but then got interested in the clinical aspects through the lab where I worked after UG, so decided to go for clinical even though I really just want to do research. But since I am interested in researching clinical topics (anxiety disorders), it seemed like the way to go. However, I am really questioning if this is the right path for me since I really would prefer to stick to research. I'm not 100% opposed to clinical work, but don't have the same passion for therapy as I do for research. I am currently trying to narrow down the programs I will be applying to in the Fall after being rejected by all Clinical PhD attempts last round. Is anyone else in a similar position? Or maybe someone who was going for the clinical degree and then switched gears? Are those people more satisfied with their careers vs the amount of effort to get there (not having to do the extra internship year, hours/ exams for licenses, etc)? Also, given these programs tend to be less competitive for admissions (not saying they are easy to get in to, just not as ridiculously hard as clinical), how do you decide to go clinical or not? Especially if your focus is going to be research either way? Click to expand...

I have been tempted to post something for a while because of the numerous posts from the unhappy people here. I don't want everyone reading these boards to think that grad school has to be awful, give you physical illnesses, and take away your social life. I *love* my program and I love what I do. I love statistics, colloquia, writing...and my friends and hobbies. Grad school has been hard work and time consuming, but I have truly enjoyed the vast majority of it so far. I hope it will get even better now that I am mostly done with coursework and can focus even moreso on research.[/QUOTE] Let me guess you haven't applied for internship, post-doc, licensure, or tried to obtain employment yet. This is when the reality really sets in. You are still shielded from this while in graduate school. I think its important for people to be aware of all the risks and since you haven't even gone through the internship stage yet you may not have a full appreciation for this yet to understand. Most of the people that I know loved the field while in graduate school and then began to slowly lose morale afterwards. Graduate school (aside from internship and dissertation) was the easiest time for me. Everyone is different though.  

Don't get me wrong, I am passionate about psychology. It interests me a great deal, but i'm also a realistic person. I'm not jumping over the moon to do pre-med, science definitely doesn't come naturally for me and I will have to work very hard to get good grades, but it's a risk I'm willing to take. Even if I do prefer psychology, sometimes you do things for the practicality of it. Each time I ask my professor about how much psychologists make they are VERY vague, they always say that there's a potential to earn a great deal. But you know what, there's potential for actors, artists and musicians to earn a great deal, too. I'm not risking my one in a million or thousand chances on potential. One of my psychology professor is around 48, he does teaching, he has a private practice and he does research on the side. Except his private practice is 6 hours away and he has to spend 2 days out of his week there. I don't know about you but this type of juggling cannot run on forever, it's alright when you're young but i dont want to have 3 'semi-temporary' jobs for the rest of my life, and he doesn't even make close to what the "average" psychiatrist makes. I'm guessing that in the future, medication will start to become even more important than now. Coupled with the fact that there is a lack of psychiatrists, it makes sense to go to psychiatry. It's all the more ridiculous that it is so competitive to get into clinical psychology and then after all that work, you get peanuts. I don't want to devalue what any one has accomplished because it is certainly a great feat, but, to me, honestly, the risk is overwhelmingly greater than the reward. What i'm more surprised about is that no one seems to mind that the salary is so low? Why isn't a clinical psychologist's salary comparable to a psychiatrist's? 1st - clinical psychology is extremely hard to get into. 2nd - they can do a multitude of things (testing, research, teaching, private/public practice) that a psychiatrist usually doesn't do. Moreover, even a GP can prescribe medication. 3rd - the length is approximately the same I realize that psychiatrists can see many more clients, but even then, the base salary should be similar..  

sydb1367 said: Speaking of which, the 75k salary thing, I think is misleading. Salaries vary so much depending on setting, job duties, and geography (not just state to state, but city to city). It’s much more helpful to look at the median salaries with these specifics factored in. Some of it is there on the apa salary survey. For my interests, setting, geography, the median is 120k. Click to expand...

I would say that if you are just interested in clinical work, don't get a PhD/PsyD in clinical psychology. Click to expand...

No offense to Carasusana, but she is not even a fellow yet, so I would consider that when you read her advice. Click to expand...

ClinicalPHD5 said: I wouldn't rely on the APA salary survey to be an accurate indicator either. It has only a 25% response rate and its only sent to APA members. Plus, the geographical salaries only have about 10 people responding, depending on the location so its not really a decent N size. Talk to people who just graduated and are on the job market and how much they make--they often have a realistic view point on what is going on right now. Click to expand...

One thing I'll mention that's somewhat ironic/amusing--I don't know whether it's true or not, but I've read posts from a few members on the psychiatry board that say the opposite of what's being mentioned here (i.e., that they see the system, or at least their field, moving/hoping to move away from strictly medication management and more toward a balanced-provider model). Again, whether or not it's actually true, I have no idea. But it's always interesting to see these same themes popping up regardless of the profession (check out the pharmacy forums and you'll see probably dozens of threads from individuals warning new students not to go that route for many of the same reasons mentioned here).  

AcronymAllergy said: One thing I'll mention that's somewhat ironic/amusing--I don't know whether it's true or not, but I've read posts from a few members on the psychiatry board that say the opposite of what's being mentioned here (i.e., that they see the system, or at least their field, moving/hoping to move away from strictly medication management and more toward a balanced-provider model). Again, whether or not it's actually true, I have no idea. But it's always interesting to see these same themes popping up regardless of the profession (check out the pharmacy forums and you'll see probably dozens of threads from individuals warning new students not to go that route for many of the same reasons mentioned here). Click to expand...

Jon Snow said: Doom and gloom, eh, I am having a good time. I've seriously liked everywhere I've been. Graduate school Was the most difficult part of the process for me, transition from undergrad who got by on getting As on every test I took to graduate student that needs to learn how to network and not be so introverted in a professional environment. This field has been really cool. I've met interesting people (patients and faculty). I get to help people, talk about all sorts of abstract philosophical models from religion to theory of mind, travel all over the world, collaborate on International projects, publish papers, edit journals, debate with people I once only knew as the man or women that wrote -insert cool book- here, and I get paid good money to do it. I mean, seriously, how cool is it to be invited to speak at a great university in new York or London, wherever, and they pay you to do it and then hang out and shoot the **** with some of the smartest people you'll where meet? Click to expand...

Dream1a said: I highly doubt that will happen, it will encroach on psychologist's reins even more and medication is seen as a cheaper, practical alternative (according to the government / insurance companies ) for mental illness. Click to expand...

Jon Snow said: Sure, it's part of academia. But, it's also mixed in with clinical work. It all is kind of seamless (e.g., helping a group in Korea start a neuropsych program). That's a clinical goal. But, you can build an equally exciting career doing mostly clinical work in academia, or even out of it. Especially, in my opinion, if you specialize. For example, become the expert on the impact of lead on developmental disorders and they might fly you out to exotic places to do forensic cases. Start centers for specific things (e.g., learning disabilities, or neurodegerative disorders with early psychiatric components [Huntington's]). I see just running a clinic, seeing patients, and not really doing anything else with it as a bit of a waste. Kind of boring. I'd be mailing it in in that situation. Click to expand...

Jon Snow said: What career isn't? Click to expand...

Jon Snow said: It may be more so than being a physician. But, I'm not sure about "many". Click to expand...

sydb1367 said: this. We're in a recession folks, unemployment is high, jobs are not secure. Do you really think psychology is that much worse than most fields? Click to expand...

Dream1a said: Not necessarily, but even if a job is secure, psychologists are getting squat. It's one thing to have a risky but high paying job, like for example a lawyer. But this doesn't seem to work for psychology. Click to expand...

I also don't know of another profession that requires a graduate degree that has 200 applicants for 2 positions on average like our internship process and that only pays 25,000. There is no doubt that nurses, lawyers, doctors, pharmacists, MBA's are doing much better.  

Psychologists should be more outraged about the salaries that they have compared to other professions with less training. I've seen too many psychologists who are okay with lowering their fees or charging as much as social workers ($80 in private practice). We should be charging more $ because we are experts and have more training than a typical physician. Physicians are okay with charging their patients $400 for a 15 minute visit where they just examine you. We offer a service that is at least as valuable and we spent a signfiicant amount longer with each of our patients--both emotionally and in terms of time spent so we should be compensated as such. People on this forum are too understanding about our lower salaries and this only perpetuates the problem. There are also too many psychologists who are willing to take low paying positions that advertise for like 25K. This is really sad.  

ClinicalPHD5 said: Psychologists should be more outraged about the salaries that they have compared to other professions with less training. I've seen too many psychologists who are okay with lowering their fees or charging as much as social workers ($80 in private practice). We should be charging more $ because we are experts and have more training than a typical physician. Physicians are okay with charging their patients $400 for a 15 minute visit where they just examine you. We offer a service that is at least as valuable and we spent a signfiicant amount longer with each of our patients--both emotionally and in terms of time spent so we should be compensated as such. People on this forum are too understanding about our lower salaries and this only perpetuates the problem. There are also too many psychologists who are willing to take low paying positions that advertise for like 25K. This is really sad. Click to expand...

Psychologists as a whole are too accepting and understanding of many of these issues....maybe its because we teach our clients about acceptance? I don't think this is the type of thing that we should accept or be understanding about. We should be much less accepting of other professions and protect psychotherapy and assessment much like physicians lobbied against our ability to get prescription rights. Psychologists should be more confident about their areas of expertise and fight to protect them from all the other professions that are poorly trained. I noticed that many people in graduate school wanted to ignore the whole salary/employment issue and pretend that it didn't exist because it was the only way they could get by in the program (some denial is healthy i guess but to a certain extent).  

ClinicalPHD5 said: Psychologists as a whole are too accepting and understanding of many of these issues....maybe its because we teach our clients about acceptance? I don't think this is the type of thing that we should accept or be understanding about. We should be much less accepting of other professions and protect psychotherapy and assessment much like physicians lobbied against our ability to get prescription rights. Psychologists should be more confident about their areas of expertise and fight to protect them from all the other professions that are poorly trained. I noticed that many people in graduate school wanted to ignore the whole salary/employment issue and pretend that it didn't exist because it was the only way they could get by in the program (some denial is healthy i guess but to a certain extent). Click to expand...

Psychologists as a whole are too accepting and understanding of many of these issues....maybe its because we teach our clients about acceptance? I don't think this is the type of thing that we should accept or be understanding about. We should be much less accepting of other professions and protect psychotherapy and assessment much like physicians lobbied against our ability to get prescription rights. Psychologists should be more confident about their areas of expertise and fight to protect them from all the other professions that are poorly trained. Click to expand...

Jon Snow said: 25 k can't be considered starting pay for a psychologist. That's internship. It is disingenuous to compare that to your physician friends that are done with residency. Finish postdoc/licensure. That's your starting salary. Btw, the average lawyer makes about what the average psychologist does. Click to expand...

roubs said: Dream1a, just 8 days ago you first posted about looking at a Ph.D. program. Has your "jaded" factor shot up in that time or did you feel this way before posting here? QUOTE] Well, i was deciding whether on not to become a psychiatrist or psychologist. Psychology would be the easiest route (as in i continue with what i'm doing now). But after reading other's opinions from those who already have their Ph.Ds and are regretting it, my worst fears were confirmed. I REALLY didn't want it to be true as it was something that I was planning on doing, but I like cold hard facts and not what could be. On top of that my research interests don't really seem to be widespread, so that really doesn't help. I don't consider myself jaded but rather realistic. I want to be 1000% sure before I make my decision that i know the state of the situation. Like others have mentioned, a lot of people go into grad school thinking that it will work out or avoid the question of pay. But i'm not going to make that mistake. I'd rather be informed about the harsh truth than finding out 7 years later. I'm not chasing money, but if i'm going to be spending the next 7-8 years of my life doing something, i sure as hell want to see a sizeable compensation. Click to expand...

Jon Snow said: Btw, the average lawyer makes about what the average psychologist does. Click to expand...

Therapist4Chnge

Neuropsych ninja.

Dream1a said: Maybe the average lawyer makes what the average psychologist does. But the upper limits of a lawyer's salary basically are endless, as well as a physician (granted they have special training etc) . The highest salary a psychologist could ever get is probably head of department or president of a university. Click to expand...

edieb said: Are you that out of touch to not realize that most (99 percent) of internships pay only 18K?? Click to expand...

• Jun 11, 2011

psychmama said: This is highly variable. I'd say that in the NYC area at least 18k is on the low end for APA accredited internships. Click to expand...

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Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time

The disposable academic.

The Economist

This article originally appeared in the 2010 Christmas double issue of The Economist.

On the evening before All Saints’ Day in 1517, Martin Luther nailed 95 theses to the door of a church in Wittenberg. In those days a thesis was simply a position one wanted to argue. Luther, an Augustinian friar, asserted that Christians could not buy their way to heaven. Today a doctoral thesis is both an idea and an account of a period of original research. Writing one is the aim of the hundreds of thousands of students who embark on a doctorate of philosophy (PhD) every year.

In most countries a PhD is a basic requirement for a career in academia. It is an introduction to the world of independent research — a kind of intellectual masterpiece, created by an apprentice in close collaboration with a supervisor. The requirements to complete one vary enormously between countries, universities and even subjects. Some students will first have to spend two years working on a master’s degree or diploma. Some will receive a stipend; others will pay their own way. Some PhDs involve only research, some require classes and examinations and some require the student to teach undergraduates. A thesis can be dozens of pages in mathematics, or many hundreds in history. As a result, newly minted PhDs can be as young as their early 20s or world-weary forty-somethings.

One thing many PhD students have in common is dissatisfaction. Some describe their work as “slave labour”. Seven-day weeks, ten-hour days, low pay and uncertain prospects are widespread. You know you are a graduate student, goes one quip, when your office is better decorated than your home and you have a favourite flavour of instant noodle. “It isn’t graduate school itself that is discouraging,” says one student, who confesses to rather enjoying the hunt for free pizza. “What’s discouraging is realising the end point has been yanked out of reach.”

Whining PhD students are nothing new, but there seem to be genuine problems with the system that produces research doctorates (the practical “professional doctorates” in fields such as law, business and medicine have a more obvious value). There is an oversupply of PhDs. Although a doctorate is designed as training for a job in academia, the number of PhD positions is unrelated to the number of job openings. Meanwhile, business leaders complain about shortages of high-level skills, suggesting PhDs are not teaching the right things. The fiercest critics compare research doctorates to Ponzi or pyramid schemes.

Rich pickings

For most of history even a first degree at a university was the privilege of a rich few, and many academic staff did not hold doctorates. But as higher education expanded after the second world war, so did the expectation that lecturers would hold advanced degrees. American universities geared up first: by 1970 America was producing just under a third of the world’s university students and half of its science and technology PhDs (at that time it had only 6% of the global population). Since then America’s annual output of PhDs has doubled, to 64,000.

Other countries are catching up. Between 1998 and 2006 the number of doctorates handed out in all OECD countries grew by 40%, compared with 22% for America. PhD production sped up most dramatically in Mexico, Portugal, Italy and Slovakia. Even Japan, where the number of young people is shrinking, churned out about 46% more PhDs. Part of that growth reflects the expansion of university education outside America. Richard Freeman, a labour economist at Harvard University, says that by 2006 America was enrolling just 12% of the world’s students.

But universities have discovered that PhD students are cheap, highly motivated and disposable labour. With more PhD students they can do more research, and in some countries more teaching, with less money. A graduate assistant at Yale might earn $20,000 a year for nine months of teaching. The average pay of full professors in America was $109,000 in 2009 — higher than the average for judges and magistrates.

Indeed, the production of PhDs has far outstripped demand for university lecturers. In a recent book, Andrew Hacker and Claudia Dreifus, an academic and a journalist, report that America produced more than 100,000 doctoral degrees between 2005 and 2009. In the same period there were just 16,000 new professorships. Using PhD students to do much of the undergraduate teaching cuts the number of full-time jobs. Even in Canada, where the output of PhD graduates has grown relatively modestly, universities conferred 4,800 doctorate degrees in 2007 but hired just 2,616 new full-time professors. Only a few fast-developing countries, such as Brazil and China, now seem short of PhDs.

A short course in supply and demand

In research the story is similar. PhD students and contract staff known as “postdocs”, described by one student as “the ugly underbelly of academia”, do much of the research these days. There is a glut of postdocs too. Dr Freeman concluded from pre-2000 data that if American faculty jobs in the life sciences were increasing at 5% a year, just 20% of students would land one. In Canada 80% of postdocs earn $38,600 or less per year before tax — the average salary of a construction worker. The rise of the postdoc has created another obstacle on the way to an academic post. In some areas five years as a postdoc is now a prerequisite for landing a secure full-time job.

These armies of low-paid PhD researchers and postdocs boost universities’, and therefore countries’, research capacity. Yet that is not always a good thing. Brilliant, well-trained minds can go to waste when fashions change. The post-Sputnik era drove the rapid growth in PhD physicists that came to an abrupt halt as the Vietnam war drained the science budget. Brian Schwartz, a professor of physics at the City University of New York, says that in the 1970s as many as 5,000 physicists had to find jobs in other areas.

In America the rise of PhD teachers’ unions reflects the breakdown of an implicit contract between universities and PhD students: crummy pay now for a good academic job later. Student teachers in public universities such as the University of Wisconsin-Madison formed unions as early as the 1960s, but the pace of unionisation has increased recently. Unions are now spreading to private universities; though Yale and Cornell, where university administrators and some faculty argue that PhD students who teach are not workers but apprentices, have resisted union drives. In 2002 New York University was the first private university to recognise a PhD teachers’ union, but stopped negotiating with it three years later.

In some countries, such as Britain and America, poor pay and job prospects are reflected in the number of foreign-born PhD students. Dr Freeman estimates that in 1966 only 23% of science and engineering PhDs in America were awarded to students born outside the country. By 2006 that proportion had increased to 48%. Foreign students tend to tolerate poorer working conditions, and the supply of cheap, brilliant, foreign labour also keeps wages down.

A PhD may offer no financial benefit over a master’s degree. It can even reduce earnings

Proponents of the PhD argue that it is worthwhile even if it does not lead to permanent academic employment. Not every student embarks on a PhD wanting a university career and many move successfully into private-sector jobs in, for instance, industrial research. That is true; but drop-out rates suggest that many students become dispirited. In America only 57% of doctoral students will have a PhD ten years after their first date of enrolment. In the humanities, where most students pay for their own PhDs, the figure is 49%. Worse still, whereas in other subject areas students tend to jump ship in the early years, in the humanities they cling like limpets before eventually falling off. And these students started out as the academic cream of the nation. Research at one American university found that those who finish are no cleverer than those who do not. Poor supervision, bad job prospects or lack of money cause them to run out of steam.

Even graduates who find work outside universities may not fare all that well. PhD courses are so specialised that university careers offices struggle to assist graduates looking for jobs, and supervisors tend to have little interest in students who are leaving academia. One OECD study shows that five years after receiving their degrees, more than 60% of PhDs in Slovakia and more than 45% in Belgium, the Czech Republic, Germany and Spain were still on temporary contracts. Many were postdocs. About one-third of Austria’s PhD graduates take jobs unrelated to their degrees. In Germany 13% of all PhD graduates end up in lowly occupations. In the Netherlands the proportion is 21%.

A very slim premium

PhD graduates do at least earn more than those with a bachelor’s degree. A study in the Journal of Higher Education Policy and Management by Bernard Casey shows that British men with a bachelor’s degree earn 14% more than those who could have gone to university but chose not to. The earnings premium for a PhD is 26%. But the premium for a master’s degree, which can be accomplished in as little as one year, is almost as high, at 23%. In some subjects the premium for a PhD vanishes entirely. PhDs in maths and computing, social sciences and languages earn no more than those with master’s degrees. The premium for a PhD is actually smaller than for a master’s degree in engineering and technology, architecture and education. Only in medicine, other sciences, and business and financial studies is it high enough to be worthwhile. Over all subjects, a PhD commands only a 3% premium over a master’s degree.

Dr Schwartz, the New York physicist, says the skills learned in the course of a PhD can be readily acquired through much shorter courses. Thirty years ago, he says, Wall Street firms realised that some physicists could work out differential equations and recruited them to become “quants”, analysts and traders. Today several short courses offer the advanced maths useful for finance. “A PhD physicist with one course on differential equations is not competitive,” says Dr Schwartz.

Many students say they are pursuing their subject out of love, and that education is an end in itself. Some give little thought to where the qualification might lead. In one study of British PhD graduates, about a third admitted that they were doing their doctorate partly to go on being a student, or put off job hunting. Nearly half of engineering students admitted to this. Scientists can easily get stipends, and therefore drift into doing a PhD. But there are penalties, as well as benefits, to staying at university. Workers with “surplus schooling” — more education than a job requires — are likely to be less satisfied, less productive and more likely to say they are going to leave their jobs.

Academics tend to regard asking whether a PhD is worthwhile as analogous to wondering whether there is too much art or culture in the world. They believe that knowledge spills from universities into society, making it more productive and healthier. That may well be true; but doing a PhD may still be a bad choice for an individual.

The interests of academics and universities on the one hand and PhD students on the other are not well aligned. The more bright students stay at universities, the better it is for academics. Postgraduate students bring in grants and beef up their supervisors’ publication records. Academics pick bright undergraduate students and groom them as potential graduate students. It isn’t in their interests to turn the smart kids away, at least at the beginning. One female student spoke of being told of glowing opportunities at the outset, but after seven years of hard slog she was fobbed off with a joke about finding a rich husband.

Monica Harris, a professor of psychology at the University of Kentucky, is a rare exception. She believes that too many PhDs are being produced, and has stopped admitting them. But such unilateral academic birth control is rare. One Ivy-League president, asked recently about PhD oversupply, said that if the top universities cut back others will step in to offer them instead.

Noble pursuits

Many of the drawbacks of doing a PhD are well known. Your correspondent was aware of them over a decade ago while she slogged through a largely pointless PhD in theoretical ecology. As Europeans try to harmonise higher education, some institutions are pushing the more structured learning that comes with an American PhD.

The organisations that pay for research have realised that many PhDs find it tough to transfer their skills into the job market. Writing lab reports, giving academic presentations and conducting six-month literature reviews can be surprisingly unhelpful in a world where technical knowledge has to be assimilated quickly and presented simply to a wide audience. Some universities are now offering their PhD students training in soft skills such as communication and teamwork that may be useful in the labour market. In Britain a four-year NewRoutePhD claims to develop just such skills in graduates.

The interests of universities and tenured academics are misaligned with those of PhD students

Measurements and incentives might be changed, too. Some university departments and academics regard numbers of PhD graduates as an indicator of success and compete to produce more. For the students, a measure of how quickly those students get a permanent job, and what they earn, would be more useful. Where penalties are levied on academics who allow PhDs to overrun, the number of students who complete rises abruptly, suggesting that students were previously allowed to fester.

Many of those who embark on a PhD are the smartest in their class and will have been the best at everything they have done. They will have amassed awards and prizes. As this year’s new crop of graduate students bounce into their research, few will be willing to accept that the system they are entering could be designed for the benefit of others, that even hard work and brilliance may well not be enough to succeed, and that they would be better off doing something else. They might use their research skills to look harder at the lot of the disposable academic. Someone should write a thesis about that.

Written by The Economist

Insight and opinion on international news, politics, business, finance, science, technology, books and arts.

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